Lojban - User contributions [en]

la jbovlaste

2020-02-05T07:45:00Z

Sisima70: noted that the link is broken

'''jbovlaste''' is a dictionary editing interface by [[Jay Kominek|Jay Kominek]], massively updated by [[Robin Lee Powell]], now in full production.

The web address is: [http://www.lojban.org/jbovlaste/ www.lojban.org/jbovlaste/]

In order to link to jbovlaste pages from pages this wiki use the following syntax when editing:
:<nowiki>{{jvs|bridi}}</nowiki>
This will link to the word '''bridi'''.

For editors: [http://openetherpad.org/iKLsPKqVc3 this list] [broken link] tells which useful English words are yet to get a search hit in jbovlaste. The sooner the dictionary covers these words, the sooner it becomes more useful at least for English speakers.

[[Category:vlaste saske]]

letters as themselves

2019-06-02T19:45:04Z

Sisima70:

According to [[the Book|the Book]], to say "the letter t" we say "me'o ty.", because "ty." by itself means the referent of "t", by default the last thing referred to whose name or description begins with "t".

=Discussion=
*Doesn't that mean ''the mekso t'', i.e., '''t''' considered as a mathematical expression? What's wrong with '''ty.bu'''?
** '''ty.bu''' is also a letter - one named with the Lojban word '''ty''', which only incidentally is another letter. '''ty.bu''' is (see [[Woldy|Woldy]] 17.5) the name of the "thorn" (''þ'') character. Using it alone in a Lojban sentence would make it mean "the last thing referred to which (very improbably) began with þ."
** To use '''ty.bu''' as the name of any ideograph other than the letter '''t''' would be obfuscatory. Stop me if I'm too radical, but I think when a meaning is 100% obvious and straightforward, we should consider accepting it.
** You're missing it. '''ty.''' is the name for the letter '''t''', not '''ty.bu.''' It also happens that anything-'''bu''' is a letter also, so it is being proposed to use the letter '''ty.bu''', which is presumably distinct from the letter '''ty''', to refer to thorn. (Mind you, using it alone in a sentence would be using is as a pro-sumti, referring to some thing which we are labeling with that letter, not the letter itself, hence the stuff about quoting it with '''me'o''').
** Thorn is more accurately '''.y'y.bu''' - /T/ is not a stop. It is an allowed variant of ' and should be written as ' rather than '''t''' as writing /T/ as a symbol that can only mean /t/ prevents people from pronouncing it correctly.
*** Huh? Thorn is a variant of '? And people hassle me about using h as a variant of '?? Oh, you mean the sound that thorn makes is an allowed variant of '. That doesn't make it the same letter.
**** No, what I said was /T/ is a variant of ' - thus Thorn should be transliterated with a ' and is thus better as '''.y'y.bu'''.
***** '''.y'y.bu''' already is the letter '''h'''.
*However, I find '''me'o ty.''' to be a bit unpleasant as well. What about '''zo ty.'''?
**'''zo ty.''' is the word "ty.", not the letter 't'.
*How do we say "the sound of the letter t"?
**'''le sance be tu'a ty'''
**'''le sance be tu'a me'o ty''', if anything.
*'''nalvokykai je molcrane dirsna''' (see [[phonetics|phonetics]])
*How do we say "J. L. B. Smith"? (He identified the [[gombesa]] as a coelacanth.)
**Like most questions about names, this one has no definite answers, but '''jylybys. smit.''' probably communicates fairly well. If precision counts, then there is nothing for it but '''la'o greg. J. L. B. Smith .greg.'''.

*One solution is '''la'e zo ty'''. The problem is that it's ambiguous. The official solution of '''me'o ty''' IMHO 'only' has the problem of identifying the string "t" with the character 't'. [[User:Sisima70|Sisima70]] ([[User talk:Sisima70|talk]]) 19:45, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

letters as themselves

2019-06-02T19:44:34Z

Sisima70:

proga:LMW - Lojbanic MediaWiki

2019-06-02T18:21:18Z

Sisima70: /* How to contribute */

This web site is called Lojbanic MediaWiki (LMW), or (within its content) '''le uitki'''. It integrates
* a [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki wiki] and thus can be edited by you, the user
* a web forum system
* quizzes
* audio/video hosting
* FAQs
LMW is being developed by the Lojban community. Right now there are [[Special:Statistics|{{NUMBEROFARTICLES}}]] articles in LMW. As of now LMW is running on Mediawiki {{CURRENTVERSION}}.
== The Logical Language Group ==
This site is an official repository of materials from [[The Logical Language Group]] (LLG), the non-profit corporation which has led Lojban development since 1987.

As part of the LLG's commitment to the community, this site attempts to reflect a cross section of the Lojban community outside of the LLG. Some of the material on this site isn't officially sanctioned, but what is official is explicitly stated.

==How to contribute==
The wiki uses the same engine as Wikipedia called MediaWiki. So if you have technical problems with improving this wiki you can search for the necessary information applied to Wikipedia or MediaWiki.

If you want to contribute the basic recommendations are:
#fix formatting of any broken page you find, add necessary hyperlinks, if the page is too hard to understand add <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Template:Jbocre/en|jbocre/en]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki> in the beginning of the code on each of such pages.
#*<nowiki>{{</nowiki>jbocre/en<nowiki>}}</nowiki> claims that page content is NON-OFFICIAL, which is not guaranteed to be true of all hard to understand pages. Therefore: problem. [[User:Sisima70|Sisima70]] ([[User talk:Sisima70|talk]]) 18:20, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
#Create new pages, add hyperlinks to other pages on the wiki in them, and add hyperlinks in other pages to your page.
#Feel freedom. The wiki is made for you too, not for just one person.

===Basic Wiki Editing===
To edit a Wiki page, you first need to register (use the link in the upper right corner), then after your account is approved you need to log in.

You should then see a tab that says "Edit", in the upper toolbar. Click that to enter the editing interface.

You should be able to mostly just type whatever you want, but if you want to do anything complicated, open this [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Editing Mediawiki help guide]. Note that paragraphs are separated by two blank lines, so you can hit return once anywhere you like.

To create a new page, just link to it from another page.

If you are creating or editing a page please consider the following conventions:
*Text in Lojban (and nothing else) should be in bold. '''.i dei lojbo jufra'''
**Alternatively, individual Lojban words can be wrapped like: '''coi''' as <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[template:jvs|jvs]]|coi<nowiki>}}</nowiki>, '''.i''' as .<nowiki>{{jvs|i}}</nowiki> etc.
*Translations to other languages (and nothing else) should be in italic. ''This is an English sentence.''
*Glossing text (showing its structure) is done by wrapping the gloss in <nowiki><code>...</code></nowiki> tags. <code>This -is-an-example-of a text-structure.</code>
*Words are emphasized by underlining them.
*You can receive e-mail notification on any wiki page change by placing the page to your watchlist by checking the Star ([[Image:star.svg|link=|20x20px]]) button.
*Discussions related to pages are in the "Discussion" tab in the toolbar
*Page titles should not contain the symbol ")" (right parenthesis) since many online resources trim links with ")" out. Page contents may have ")" of course.
*You can [[:Special:RecentChanges|see]] the last n pages changed, pages changed in last m days, difference charts (click on "diff" or use "History" tab) of what was changed in any page.
{{See_also|Lojban writing conventions}}

==Prefixes to pages==
Pages can start with a prefix:
*'''proga''' (like this very page) is for stuff related to technical issues of this wiki
*'''jboske''' and '''BPFK''' are for pages related to [[BPFK]] work
* [[Official LLG pages]]

==[[proga:LMW. How to add the interface for a new language|How to add the interface for a new language]]==
* Translating wiki interface elements - can be done on translatewiki.net with a few LMW-specific strings in the "Mediawiki:" namespace of this wiki.

==[[proga:LMW - Managing|Managing LMW]]==
If you are in charge of LMW ...
==Feedback==
If you are seeking admin help, try the [[Lojban IRC|Lojban IRC]] channel.

==[[Talk:proga:LMW - Lojbanic MediaWiki|Discussions of how to develop Lojban wikis]]==

==ToDo and the future of '''le uitki'''==
This section is a central place in coordinating what needs to be done on the wiki. This is a list of things that still needs to be added to it or are under consideration.

Please add anything you feel is missing or needs fixing. When a feature is already added, delete the string with it, or move it to a "Done" section below.
* Improve [[Lojbanic Software]] page.
* Split all the content using pages prefixes: "proga", "jboske"/"BPFK". Add templates to the top of pages where needed. E.g. add <nowiki>{{jbocre/en}}</nowiki> to the code of pages that describe rants and tricky questions regarding Lojban not usable by '''lo nintadni''' (i.e. new users). This produces the following block:{{jbocre/en}}
** Some pages are imported from the old tiki, those are a subject to move to other categories or deleted if they are of no use.
** "Stub:" - pages to be developed and moved to the first category.
* Fix all links on [[te gerna la lojban]] page. Add missing texts. At least one copy of each text must be inside the wiki in mediawiki format (you may still post additional links to texts in other formats). No need in localizing this page to other languages. Write in in Lojban
*Check if the links that lead from the main page always end in well-formatted pages without missing hyperlinks.
* check whether old and outdated translations exist
* nicer layout, for the front page, toolbars.
*[[la gleki]]:
**[[la selpa'i]] wanted a newspaper in Lojban.
* Write up a page for [[Crash Course]], [[L4B]], similar to [[What Is Lojban?, The Book]] or [[The Complete Lojban Language|The Complete Lojban Language]]
* The [[How You Can Help|Contribute]] page needs expanding. Preferably showing the various ways one can contribute to the Lojban collective e.g. via Jbovlaste, the mw.lojban.org Wiki, jbo.wikipedia.org, jboselkei, tatoeba.org etc.
*Port the whole of CLL to the wiki
**wikify CLL
**Update the CLL draft with the [[CLL, aka Reference Grammar, Errata]]
***[[la gleki]]: Not so hard to do that actually. See [[ELG]]
* Maybe produce an online version of [[L4B|Lojban for Beginners]]
** [[la gleki]]: No need. I'm working on [[The Crash Course (a draft)|The Crash Course]] which is heavily based on [[L4B]].
* [[rlpowell|rlpowell]]:
*:It would be nice if people monitoring a page were sent copies when someone was discussing it.
* Automatically report broken links
* Some sort of automatic translation from Lojban, for example button 'link all words to dictionary entries'
* One should have possibility to change names of users. Then, clicking on username could lead directly to his user page, where standard information (email/country) can be inserted.
* [[ilya nikokoshev|ilya]]:
*:Maybe search should get you right to the page if there is only one found.
*[[la gleki]]:
*:Translate Extension is completely useless in a multilingual wiki since every language differs from lojban in a different way and thus requires special treatment. Thus im against literal translation of [[CLL]] to other languages. they must be adapted
*[http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=Special:WikiForum&forum=1 The shoutbox] needs to be removed. It's rarely used and nothing comes of it. Imo, people should be able to use the forums, mailing list or IRC channel to voice anything. If they are unable to do this we've done something wrong. The shoutbox just takes up space and adds yet another channel of communication which further partitions the concentration of focus for lojbo. All in favour of its removal? Let's not be sentimental, btw. — chrisdone
**.kamymecraijun.:
**:'''.ie.i'esaisai .i .a'o ma'a spocatra ti loi ba'e fagri'''
===News===
* '''mi'e la [[guskant]]''':
**[[Lo Lojbo Nuzba|News]] page is multilingualized. You can complete the localization by creating and translating the following pages for each language on LMW. See jbo or en version(s) for what to be written in the pages.
<pre>
MediaWiki:Lo cinri ckupau/[language code]
MediaWiki:Lo piro ckupau/[language code]
MediaWiki:Nelti'i lo ckupau/[language code]
MediaWiki:Xu do djuno/[language code]
MediaWiki:Nelti'i lo cnino/[language code]
MediaWiki:Xokau ckupau/[language code]
MediaWiki:Cecmu nuzba/[language code]
MediaWiki:Kibro nuzba/[language code]
MediaWiki:Tu'iter/[language code]
MediaWiki:Redit/[language code]
MediaWiki:Guglgirzu lojban/[language code]
MediaWiki:Guglgirzu lojban-beginners/[language code]
MediaWiki:Guglgirzu bpfk-list/[language code]
MediaWiki:Guglgirzu lojban-soudan/[language code]
MediaWiki:Guglgirzu ponjo_lojbo_citno_girzu/[language code]
MediaWiki:Nelti'i lo nuzyfle/[language code]
MediaWiki:Ko sidju/[language code]
MediaWiki:Visualeditor-help-label/[language code]
MediaWiki:Ko te pinka/[language code]
</pre>
Create also the following page that should include not a translation but an address of a news page, nuzba or nuzba/en (if not, nuzba/en is selected as default):
<pre>
MediaWiki:Nuzba-url/[language code]
</pre>
Similarly, the following page should include a url of a news feed, {{:MediaWiki:Nuzba-nuzyfle-url/jbo}} or {{:MediaWiki:Nuzba-nuzyfle-url/en}}:
<pre>
MediaWiki:Nuzba-nuzyfle-url/[language code]
</pre>
**Localizing https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Template:Today's_featured_article/August,_2015 still not supported
*not developed in LMW. Look at those fancy welcome pages at en.wikipedia.org or nds-nl.wikipedia.org. We need something like that.
*[[Lojban timeline]] must be either in Lojban only or localized.
** '''mi'e la [[guskant]]''':
***It is partially done on the '''[[nuzba]]''' page. Please insert news articles to the '''[[nuzba]]''' page in Lojban and to the [[nuzba/en]] page in English, and they will appear on some other pages like the [[Lo Lojbo Nuzba|multilingualized news page]] or English top page. Don't forget to move an old article to the '''ba'o nuzba'''/''Archives'' section.
** the news section is not very good advertisement imo. when i read it as a newbie, with one 10sec clip released in 2007, and two news in 2008, i think the community is almost dead. so, maybe add some news?
***[[la selkik]]:
**** The problem is that there is LOTS of new news. There's plenty of news. I don't see any reason to rewrite that ancient text with some recent news and leave it on the front page though. It's weird. It's as if by adding some particular thing that happened I'm sanctioning the erroneous impression it gives that hardly anything ever happens in jbogu'e. So I say we just archive that news to an article called "News That Used To Be Up On The Main Page For Ages Even Though After A Little While It Wasn't News And Started To Give The Wrong Impression" (except shorter, probably) and forget about it. Who's in?

===Missing Extensions===
* [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Flow Flow extension], a replacement of Talk tabs should be available in beta version in 2014. Please install it when it's ready to use.
* AWC Extension for LMW. It has been discovered that AWC extension no longer works for MW 1.22 wmf11. So [[la gleki]] patched it by replacing all deprecated functions with new ones or commenting out some strings that had deprecated functions. The patched extension can be downloaded [[:File:AWC-LMW.7z|here]]. If a file is patched it is backuped in the same folder with suffix @@@. For now uploading user avatars from AWC itself doesn't work. Use <nowiki>[[File: ...]]</nowiki> links or urls instead.

==Done==
* Clicking on the flags on the welcome screen changes the interface (e.g. the left sidebar) accordingly.
* An instruction on [[proga:LMW. How to add the interface for a new language|how to add the interface for a new language]] if you have Lojbani stuff in the language not present on the main page with flags.
*.au la'au lo cinri ckupau li'u .e la'au xu do djuno lo du'u go'o li'u .e la'au lo cecmu nuzba li'u cu gubgau rysysy .i va'i pilno la'o zoi [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:WikiArticleFeeds Extension:WikiArticleFeeds] zoi mu'o mi'e [[la guskant]] de'i li 2015-05-29 ti'u li 03:03 UTC
**mo'u se jmina

[[Category:LMW]]

proga:LMW - Lojbanic MediaWiki

2019-06-02T18:20:18Z

Sisima70: /* How to contribute */

This web site is called Lojbanic MediaWiki (LMW), or (within its content) '''le uitki'''. It integrates
* a [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki wiki] and thus can be edited by you, the user
* a web forum system
* quizzes
* audio/video hosting
* FAQs
LMW is being developed by the Lojban community. Right now there are [[Special:Statistics|{{NUMBEROFARTICLES}}]] articles in LMW. As of now LMW is running on Mediawiki {{CURRENTVERSION}}.
== The Logical Language Group ==
This site is an official repository of materials from [[The Logical Language Group]] (LLG), the non-profit corporation which has led Lojban development since 1987.

As part of the LLG's commitment to the community, this site attempts to reflect a cross section of the Lojban community outside of the LLG. Some of the material on this site isn't officially sanctioned, but what is official is explicitly stated.

==How to contribute==
The wiki uses the same engine as Wikipedia called MediaWiki. So if you have technical problems with improving this wiki you can search for the necessary information applied to Wikipedia or MediaWiki.

If you want to contribute the basic recommendations are:
#fix formatting of any broken page you find, add necessary hyperlinks, if the page is too hard to understand add <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Template:Jbocre/en|jbocre/en]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki> in the beginning of the code on each of such pages.

#*<nowiki>{{</nowiki>jbocre/en<nowiki>}}</nowiki> claims that page content is NON-OFFICIAL, which is not guaranteed to be true of all hard to understand pages. Therefore: problem. [[User:Sisima70|Sisima70]] ([[User talk:Sisima70|talk]]) 18:20, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

#Create new pages, add hyperlinks to other pages on the wiki in them, and add hyperlinks in other pages to your page.
#Feel freedom. The wiki is made for you too, not for just one person.

===Basic Wiki Editing===
To edit a Wiki page, you first need to register (use the link in the upper right corner), then after your account is approved you need to log in.

You should then see a tab that says "Edit", in the upper toolbar. Click that to enter the editing interface.

You should be able to mostly just type whatever you want, but if you want to do anything complicated, open this [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Editing Mediawiki help guide]. Note that paragraphs are separated by two blank lines, so you can hit return once anywhere you like.

To create a new page, just link to it from another page.

If you are creating or editing a page please consider the following conventions:
*Text in Lojban (and nothing else) should be in bold. '''.i dei lojbo jufra'''
**Alternatively, individual Lojban words can be wrapped like: '''coi''' as <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[template:jvs|jvs]]|coi<nowiki>}}</nowiki>, '''.i''' as .<nowiki>{{jvs|i}}</nowiki> etc.
*Translations to other languages (and nothing else) should be in italic. ''This is an English sentence.''
*Glossing text (showing its structure) is done by wrapping the gloss in <nowiki><code>...</code></nowiki> tags. <code>This -is-an-example-of a text-structure.</code>
*Words are emphasized by underlining them.
*You can receive e-mail notification on any wiki page change by placing the page to your watchlist by checking the Star ([[Image:star.svg|link=|20x20px]]) button.
*Discussions related to pages are in the "Discussion" tab in the toolbar
*Page titles should not contain the symbol ")" (right parenthesis) since many online resources trim links with ")" out. Page contents may have ")" of course.
*You can [[:Special:RecentChanges|see]] the last n pages changed, pages changed in last m days, difference charts (click on "diff" or use "History" tab) of what was changed in any page.
{{See_also|Lojban writing conventions}}

==Prefixes to pages==
Pages can start with a prefix:
*'''proga''' (like this very page) is for stuff related to technical issues of this wiki
*'''jboske''' and '''BPFK''' are for pages related to [[BPFK]] work
* [[Official LLG pages]]

==[[proga:LMW. How to add the interface for a new language|How to add the interface for a new language]]==
* Translating wiki interface elements - can be done on translatewiki.net with a few LMW-specific strings in the "Mediawiki:" namespace of this wiki.

==[[proga:LMW - Managing|Managing LMW]]==
If you are in charge of LMW ...
==Feedback==
If you are seeking admin help, try the [[Lojban IRC|Lojban IRC]] channel.

==[[Talk:proga:LMW - Lojbanic MediaWiki|Discussions of how to develop Lojban wikis]]==

==ToDo and the future of '''le uitki'''==
This section is a central place in coordinating what needs to be done on the wiki. This is a list of things that still needs to be added to it or are under consideration.

Please add anything you feel is missing or needs fixing. When a feature is already added, delete the string with it, or move it to a "Done" section below.
* Improve [[Lojbanic Software]] page.
* Split all the content using pages prefixes: "proga", "jboske"/"BPFK". Add templates to the top of pages where needed. E.g. add <nowiki>{{jbocre/en}}</nowiki> to the code of pages that describe rants and tricky questions regarding Lojban not usable by '''lo nintadni''' (i.e. new users). This produces the following block:{{jbocre/en}}
** Some pages are imported from the old tiki, those are a subject to move to other categories or deleted if they are of no use.
** "Stub:" - pages to be developed and moved to the first category.
* Fix all links on [[te gerna la lojban]] page. Add missing texts. At least one copy of each text must be inside the wiki in mediawiki format (you may still post additional links to texts in other formats). No need in localizing this page to other languages. Write in in Lojban
*Check if the links that lead from the main page always end in well-formatted pages without missing hyperlinks.
* check whether old and outdated translations exist
* nicer layout, for the front page, toolbars.
*[[la gleki]]:
**[[la selpa'i]] wanted a newspaper in Lojban.
* Write up a page for [[Crash Course]], [[L4B]], similar to [[What Is Lojban?, The Book]] or [[The Complete Lojban Language|The Complete Lojban Language]]
* The [[How You Can Help|Contribute]] page needs expanding. Preferably showing the various ways one can contribute to the Lojban collective e.g. via Jbovlaste, the mw.lojban.org Wiki, jbo.wikipedia.org, jboselkei, tatoeba.org etc.
*Port the whole of CLL to the wiki
**wikify CLL
**Update the CLL draft with the [[CLL, aka Reference Grammar, Errata]]
***[[la gleki]]: Not so hard to do that actually. See [[ELG]]
* Maybe produce an online version of [[L4B|Lojban for Beginners]]
** [[la gleki]]: No need. I'm working on [[The Crash Course (a draft)|The Crash Course]] which is heavily based on [[L4B]].
* [[rlpowell|rlpowell]]:
*:It would be nice if people monitoring a page were sent copies when someone was discussing it.
* Automatically report broken links
* Some sort of automatic translation from Lojban, for example button 'link all words to dictionary entries'
* One should have possibility to change names of users. Then, clicking on username could lead directly to his user page, where standard information (email/country) can be inserted.
* [[ilya nikokoshev|ilya]]:
*:Maybe search should get you right to the page if there is only one found.
*[[la gleki]]:
*:Translate Extension is completely useless in a multilingual wiki since every language differs from lojban in a different way and thus requires special treatment. Thus im against literal translation of [[CLL]] to other languages. they must be adapted
*[http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=Special:WikiForum&forum=1 The shoutbox] needs to be removed. It's rarely used and nothing comes of it. Imo, people should be able to use the forums, mailing list or IRC channel to voice anything. If they are unable to do this we've done something wrong. The shoutbox just takes up space and adds yet another channel of communication which further partitions the concentration of focus for lojbo. All in favour of its removal? Let's not be sentimental, btw. — chrisdone
**.kamymecraijun.:
**:'''.ie.i'esaisai .i .a'o ma'a spocatra ti loi ba'e fagri'''
===News===
* '''mi'e la [[guskant]]''':
**[[Lo Lojbo Nuzba|News]] page is multilingualized. You can complete the localization by creating and translating the following pages for each language on LMW. See jbo or en version(s) for what to be written in the pages.
<pre>
MediaWiki:Lo cinri ckupau/[language code]
MediaWiki:Lo piro ckupau/[language code]
MediaWiki:Nelti'i lo ckupau/[language code]
MediaWiki:Xu do djuno/[language code]
MediaWiki:Nelti'i lo cnino/[language code]
MediaWiki:Xokau ckupau/[language code]
MediaWiki:Cecmu nuzba/[language code]
MediaWiki:Kibro nuzba/[language code]
MediaWiki:Tu'iter/[language code]
MediaWiki:Redit/[language code]
MediaWiki:Guglgirzu lojban/[language code]
MediaWiki:Guglgirzu lojban-beginners/[language code]
MediaWiki:Guglgirzu bpfk-list/[language code]
MediaWiki:Guglgirzu lojban-soudan/[language code]
MediaWiki:Guglgirzu ponjo_lojbo_citno_girzu/[language code]
MediaWiki:Nelti'i lo nuzyfle/[language code]
MediaWiki:Ko sidju/[language code]
MediaWiki:Visualeditor-help-label/[language code]
MediaWiki:Ko te pinka/[language code]
</pre>
Create also the following page that should include not a translation but an address of a news page, nuzba or nuzba/en (if not, nuzba/en is selected as default):
<pre>
MediaWiki:Nuzba-url/[language code]
</pre>
Similarly, the following page should include a url of a news feed, {{:MediaWiki:Nuzba-nuzyfle-url/jbo}} or {{:MediaWiki:Nuzba-nuzyfle-url/en}}:
<pre>
MediaWiki:Nuzba-nuzyfle-url/[language code]
</pre>
**Localizing https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Template:Today's_featured_article/August,_2015 still not supported
*not developed in LMW. Look at those fancy welcome pages at en.wikipedia.org or nds-nl.wikipedia.org. We need something like that.
*[[Lojban timeline]] must be either in Lojban only or localized.
** '''mi'e la [[guskant]]''':
***It is partially done on the '''[[nuzba]]''' page. Please insert news articles to the '''[[nuzba]]''' page in Lojban and to the [[nuzba/en]] page in English, and they will appear on some other pages like the [[Lo Lojbo Nuzba|multilingualized news page]] or English top page. Don't forget to move an old article to the '''ba'o nuzba'''/''Archives'' section.
** the news section is not very good advertisement imo. when i read it as a newbie, with one 10sec clip released in 2007, and two news in 2008, i think the community is almost dead. so, maybe add some news?
***[[la selkik]]:
**** The problem is that there is LOTS of new news. There's plenty of news. I don't see any reason to rewrite that ancient text with some recent news and leave it on the front page though. It's weird. It's as if by adding some particular thing that happened I'm sanctioning the erroneous impression it gives that hardly anything ever happens in jbogu'e. So I say we just archive that news to an article called "News That Used To Be Up On The Main Page For Ages Even Though After A Little While It Wasn't News And Started To Give The Wrong Impression" (except shorter, probably) and forget about it. Who's in?

===Missing Extensions===
* [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Flow Flow extension], a replacement of Talk tabs should be available in beta version in 2014. Please install it when it's ready to use.
* AWC Extension for LMW. It has been discovered that AWC extension no longer works for MW 1.22 wmf11. So [[la gleki]] patched it by replacing all deprecated functions with new ones or commenting out some strings that had deprecated functions. The patched extension can be downloaded [[:File:AWC-LMW.7z|here]]. If a file is patched it is backuped in the same folder with suffix @@@. For now uploading user avatars from AWC itself doesn't work. Use <nowiki>[[File: ...]]</nowiki> links or urls instead.

==Done==
* Clicking on the flags on the welcome screen changes the interface (e.g. the left sidebar) accordingly.
* An instruction on [[proga:LMW. How to add the interface for a new language|how to add the interface for a new language]] if you have Lojbani stuff in the language not present on the main page with flags.
*.au la'au lo cinri ckupau li'u .e la'au xu do djuno lo du'u go'o li'u .e la'au lo cecmu nuzba li'u cu gubgau rysysy .i va'i pilno la'o zoi [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:WikiArticleFeeds Extension:WikiArticleFeeds] zoi mu'o mi'e [[la guskant]] de'i li 2015-05-29 ti'u li 03:03 UTC
**mo'u se jmina

[[Category:LMW]]

suggestions for CLL, second edition

2019-06-02T17:42:21Z

Sisima70: /* Section 12 */

For errata relating to the current edition of the CLL, see [[CLL, aka Reference Grammar, Errata|CLL, aka Reference Grammar, Errata]]. For errata related to the 4th Baseline Grammar, see [[CLL PEG Errata|CLL PEG Errata]].

== General considerations ==

=== Terminology ===

#Lojban terms are used for most parts of speech, except for quantifiers and descriptors. Needlessly inconsistent?

**In particular (this list is not exhaustive),
***quantifier->something with {snicne}? (though personally I (zort) disagree with the veljvo of {snicne})

***quantified variable->something with {snicne}?
***descriptor->gadri

***description->gadri sumti (I haven't actually seen this used)
***attitudinal->cnima'o
****Only correct for emotion-words, not all attitudinals; this is due to its etymology. [[User:Sisima70|Sisima70]] ([[User talk:Sisima70|talk]]) 17:11, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

***terminator->fa'orma'o

***modal->sumti tcita

***vocative->jikma'o? rinsyma'o?
***evidential->veljivma'o?

**Using Lojban terms is probably confusing for beginners. They're appropriate for a reference manual but not for a (comprehensive) tutorial, and it is clear that CLL is trying to be both. Not trying to claim that it necessarily shouldn't be both, just clarifying the issue.

#A lot of this terminology is used without being defined. We should formally define the terminology that is import to understanding the grammar and syntax of Lojban, preferably in a sidebar outside of the main text.

# The general idea of terminators and particularly elision is never discussed as such in the book. Chapter 5.5 is the first mention of a elidable terminators, with the first use of the phrase elidable terminator occurring in Chapter 5.7. I think the concept of terminators, cmavo opening grammatical constructs, and elision should be dealt with in it's own section. At the very least, the construct should be defined.[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/browse_frm/thread/51e61df572e4ccf0]

=== Teaching Material and Examples ===

#There should be more illustration and diagrams. For instance, with termsets, show with lines and/or colour coding how two sentences are equivalent. See [http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/ロジバン the Japanese Wikipedia] for some other examples.

# Minimum 2 sentence explanation for every cmavo (excluding ones that are part of a pattern like {fo'i}, of course). Chapter 13 is particularly guilty of the length of the explanation of a cmavo seemingly being inversely proportional to the number of cmavo explained in the section; some just get two gloss words worth of explanation, and it's rather opaque.

=== Pedagogy ===

# Chapter 4 needs to go somewhere else, ideally near the end. It's crazy to give all that crap to newbies.

**''It is a specification, not a tutorial. It makes sense to start with orthography, follow with morphology, and then the continue with the rest of the language.'' mi'e.djeims.

# Maybe the fact that denpabu are optional in writing should be reinforced, since people seem to forget that. Right now it's only mentioned once, early in the book, in a little paragraph in chapter 3. It would not be out of place in chapters 4 and 19.

== Topic Suggestions ==

Each of these topics is important to the CLL, but not strictly contained to a single chapter or Section. Ideally, each of these topics would be reviewed for consistency throughout the text.

=== brivla/cmevla merger ===
* Even though the CLL probably shouldn't encode the "brivla-cmevla merge" proposal yet (if ever), I think it should have {cu} in {la .djan. cu klama}. This is because BCM or not, this elision of {cu} is confusing to beginners. Once they learn that brivla can be names too, they are liable to go e.g. {la zipcpi klama}; makes {la} look like it has "two grammars".
** "la" HAS two grammars [[User:Sisima70|Sisima70]] ([[User talk:Sisima70|talk]]) 17:14, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

=== Lujvo ===

==== Chapter 4 ====

===== Section 5 =====

It seems like the writers of the CLL originally did really just think of lujvo as being shortened forms of tanru who have been given an explicit meaning instead of the vague meaning that tanru have.

=== Cultural Neutrality ===

Chapter 3, Section 12 is titled "Oddball Orthographies." "Oddball" is value judgment, rather than a factual statement. In the spirit of cultural neutrality we should find statements with implied value judgments and translate them to factual statements. In this case, "Alternate Orthographies" is a much clearer statement about the contents of that section.

* An obvious objection to this is that a neutral tone of writing is relatively boring. "Oddball" is more fun than "Alternate". By the way, do you advocate changing the chapter title "Relative Clauses, Which Make sumti Even More Complicated"?

== Typographical ==

*It would be better if numbered were not only chapters and sections, but also sentences like in the Bible.
***''Exactly what would be the benefit of adding "verse" numbers? We can easily cite specific sentences without the need to do this. For example, citing from the online refgram: 9.3.7.2 (Chapter 9, section 3, paragraph 7, sentence 2): "Therefore, it is perfectly all right to scramble...." Or for examples: 9.3-3.3 (Chapter 9, section 3, example 3.3): "''3.3) klama fa mi fi la .atlantas.'' ...."'' mi'e.aionys.

*The brush-stroke placeholders for logical connectives should be written in "blackboard bold" instead, to make it look more form
**''I remember this section being confusing to me because of the brushstroke letters. Suddenly the book became much more formal (in the mathematical sense) and I didn't know what that signified. Writing them as of "-a -e -i -o" might be better, since the hyphen indicates they are not themselves words, without introducing a strange new typographical convention. The book already uses hyphens to show that rafsi are not words, so this would be consistent. Or since "a e i o" actually are words, perhaps they could be used directly.'' mi'e.paldanyli.

*The header or footer of each page should include the chapter number along with the title, to make fully referencing examples easier. (i.e., when you see example 1.7, you can look at that page and know that it is example 5.1.7, without having to scroll back to the table of contents to find the name of the chapter.)

== Chapter Suggestions ==

=== Chapter 3 ===

==== Section 6 ====

#Section 6, restriction no. 2 already forbids 8 of the 12 consonant pairs that are forbidden by restriction no. 3; perhaps it's better to just explicitly forbid the pairs "cs", "jz", "sc" and "zj" like in the last restriction.

**''I kind of like that the explanation for those pairs being forbidden is given, even if it includes things already forbidden. I would like it slightly better if the word "sibilant" were used. Perhaps for consistency the reason could be given for the last restriction instead of listing seemingly-random pairs.'' .imi'e .skaryzgik.
***''Agreed'' mi'e.aionys.

==== Section 9 ====

#A bit after example 9.5, the explanation of how to stress words is ambiguous. A possible incorrect interpretation:
<code>
set stressed_syllable = penultimate_syllable;

while (stressed_syllable contains "l|m|n|r|y"

&& stressed_syllable != first_syllable) {

stressed_syllable = syllable_before(stressed_syllable);
</code>
None of the examples demonstrate that only syllables containing "l|m|n|r" as syllables on their own are to be skipped, nor that skipped syllables are to be ignored ''before'' you start counting as opposed to skipped while you're counting. The following examples would make it clearer: {djanatyn} is pronounced {DJAnatyn} (not {djaNAtyn}), and {patrica} is pronounced {paTRIca} (not {PAtrica}).

==== Section 12 ====

*The tengwar table should use actual tengwar in addition to their names, since we now have Unicode (CSUR) and good fonts.
*The Cyrillic letters given map to 'abcdefgijklmnoprstuvxyz'? That doesn't seem totally obvious. mi'e.djeims.
**I agree [[User:Sisima70|Sisima70]] ([[User talk:Sisima70|talk]]) 17:42, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

=== Chapter 4 ===

==== Section 7 ====

*In the procedure for making a non-Lojban word into a valid Stage 3 fu'ivla, double consonants are to be eliminated before the sounds are to be converted to their closest Lojban equivalents, but it is possible that consecutive consonants have different sounds (like in 'eccentric'). So these actions should swap places. The same goes for section 8, in the procedure for Lojbanizing a name.

=== Chapter 5 ===

==== Section 14 ====

*The three letter language abbreviations were probably used to save space, but now that we have actual tables we can safely write the full names of the languages.

=== Chapter 10 ===

*It would be nice if there was a template for compound tenses around the end of the chapter, like the template for compound cnima'o in chapter 13 section 8.

=== Chapter 11 ===

==== Section 12 ====

*The phrase {le ka la frank ciska} is glossed as "The quality-of Frank's writing". {ka} glosses to the word "property", and the Lojban doesn't talk at all about quality (as in jezyprane), so I believe the word "quality" was accidentally put there, having bled into the interlinear gloss from the author's intended natural English translation. That said, I (Zort) believe the gloss should be "The property-that Frank writes".
*''That'' said, I (still Zort) have a humble suggestion for a demonstration of this section's grammatical feature, a cynical little observation, that has occured in my Lojban speech "in the wild", and perhaps therefore proves at least some usefulness of this grammatical feature: {le'e prenu cu djica lo mu'e jenai za'i gunka}.

=== Chapter 13 ===

==== Section 15 ====

*Couldn't the {se'u}s be elided since their sumti are before their selbri?

=== Chapter 16 ===

==== Section 9 ====

*It says "for no x" (noda) is the same as "it is false for some x" (naku su'oda). I (mi'e zort) interpret "it is false for some x" as "there is an x such that it is false" (su'oda naku), not "it is false that for some x it is true" (naku su'oda), so it should be changed to "it is false '''that''' for some x".

=== Chapter 18 ===

==== Section 19 ====

This section is very similar to Chapter 19 Section 7. I believe the information in these sections should be consolidated into a single section.

=== Chapter 19 ===

==== Section 7 ====

This section is very similar to Chapter 18 Section 19. I believe the information in these sections should be consolidated into a single section.

=== Chapter 21 ===

==== Section 2 ====

Rule 6 in the introductory remarks on EBNF syntax should clarify that "A & B" means "A | B | A B", but does not permit "B A". Further, explain that "A & B & C & D" permits one or more of A, B, C, and/or D, but ONLY in that order.

suggestions for CLL, second edition

2019-06-02T17:42:06Z

Sisima70: /* Section 12 */

For errata relating to the current edition of the CLL, see [[CLL, aka Reference Grammar, Errata|CLL, aka Reference Grammar, Errata]]. For errata related to the 4th Baseline Grammar, see [[CLL PEG Errata|CLL PEG Errata]].

== General considerations ==

=== Terminology ===

#Lojban terms are used for most parts of speech, except for quantifiers and descriptors. Needlessly inconsistent?

**In particular (this list is not exhaustive),
***quantifier->something with {snicne}? (though personally I (zort) disagree with the veljvo of {snicne})

***quantified variable->something with {snicne}?
***descriptor->gadri

***description->gadri sumti (I haven't actually seen this used)
***attitudinal->cnima'o
****Only correct for emotion-words, not all attitudinals; this is due to its etymology. [[User:Sisima70|Sisima70]] ([[User talk:Sisima70|talk]]) 17:11, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

***terminator->fa'orma'o

***modal->sumti tcita

***vocative->jikma'o? rinsyma'o?
***evidential->veljivma'o?

**Using Lojban terms is probably confusing for beginners. They're appropriate for a reference manual but not for a (comprehensive) tutorial, and it is clear that CLL is trying to be both. Not trying to claim that it necessarily shouldn't be both, just clarifying the issue.

#A lot of this terminology is used without being defined. We should formally define the terminology that is import to understanding the grammar and syntax of Lojban, preferably in a sidebar outside of the main text.

# The general idea of terminators and particularly elision is never discussed as such in the book. Chapter 5.5 is the first mention of a elidable terminators, with the first use of the phrase elidable terminator occurring in Chapter 5.7. I think the concept of terminators, cmavo opening grammatical constructs, and elision should be dealt with in it's own section. At the very least, the construct should be defined.[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/browse_frm/thread/51e61df572e4ccf0]

=== Teaching Material and Examples ===

#There should be more illustration and diagrams. For instance, with termsets, show with lines and/or colour coding how two sentences are equivalent. See [http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/ロジバン the Japanese Wikipedia] for some other examples.

# Minimum 2 sentence explanation for every cmavo (excluding ones that are part of a pattern like {fo'i}, of course). Chapter 13 is particularly guilty of the length of the explanation of a cmavo seemingly being inversely proportional to the number of cmavo explained in the section; some just get two gloss words worth of explanation, and it's rather opaque.

=== Pedagogy ===

# Chapter 4 needs to go somewhere else, ideally near the end. It's crazy to give all that crap to newbies.

**''It is a specification, not a tutorial. It makes sense to start with orthography, follow with morphology, and then the continue with the rest of the language.'' mi'e.djeims.

# Maybe the fact that denpabu are optional in writing should be reinforced, since people seem to forget that. Right now it's only mentioned once, early in the book, in a little paragraph in chapter 3. It would not be out of place in chapters 4 and 19.

== Topic Suggestions ==

Each of these topics is important to the CLL, but not strictly contained to a single chapter or Section. Ideally, each of these topics would be reviewed for consistency throughout the text.

=== brivla/cmevla merger ===
* Even though the CLL probably shouldn't encode the "brivla-cmevla merge" proposal yet (if ever), I think it should have {cu} in {la .djan. cu klama}. This is because BCM or not, this elision of {cu} is confusing to beginners. Once they learn that brivla can be names too, they are liable to go e.g. {la zipcpi klama}; makes {la} look like it has "two grammars".
** "la" HAS two grammars [[User:Sisima70|Sisima70]] ([[User talk:Sisima70|talk]]) 17:14, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

=== Lujvo ===

==== Chapter 4 ====

===== Section 5 =====

It seems like the writers of the CLL originally did really just think of lujvo as being shortened forms of tanru who have been given an explicit meaning instead of the vague meaning that tanru have.

=== Cultural Neutrality ===

Chapter 3, Section 12 is titled "Oddball Orthographies." "Oddball" is value judgment, rather than a factual statement. In the spirit of cultural neutrality we should find statements with implied value judgments and translate them to factual statements. In this case, "Alternate Orthographies" is a much clearer statement about the contents of that section.

* An obvious objection to this is that a neutral tone of writing is relatively boring. "Oddball" is more fun than "Alternate". By the way, do you advocate changing the chapter title "Relative Clauses, Which Make sumti Even More Complicated"?

== Typographical ==

*It would be better if numbered were not only chapters and sections, but also sentences like in the Bible.
***''Exactly what would be the benefit of adding "verse" numbers? We can easily cite specific sentences without the need to do this. For example, citing from the online refgram: 9.3.7.2 (Chapter 9, section 3, paragraph 7, sentence 2): "Therefore, it is perfectly all right to scramble...." Or for examples: 9.3-3.3 (Chapter 9, section 3, example 3.3): "''3.3) klama fa mi fi la .atlantas.'' ...."'' mi'e.aionys.

*The brush-stroke placeholders for logical connectives should be written in "blackboard bold" instead, to make it look more form
**''I remember this section being confusing to me because of the brushstroke letters. Suddenly the book became much more formal (in the mathematical sense) and I didn't know what that signified. Writing them as of "-a -e -i -o" might be better, since the hyphen indicates they are not themselves words, without introducing a strange new typographical convention. The book already uses hyphens to show that rafsi are not words, so this would be consistent. Or since "a e i o" actually are words, perhaps they could be used directly.'' mi'e.paldanyli.

*The header or footer of each page should include the chapter number along with the title, to make fully referencing examples easier. (i.e., when you see example 1.7, you can look at that page and know that it is example 5.1.7, without having to scroll back to the table of contents to find the name of the chapter.)

== Chapter Suggestions ==

=== Chapter 3 ===

==== Section 6 ====

#Section 6, restriction no. 2 already forbids 8 of the 12 consonant pairs that are forbidden by restriction no. 3; perhaps it's better to just explicitly forbid the pairs "cs", "jz", "sc" and "zj" like in the last restriction.

**''I kind of like that the explanation for those pairs being forbidden is given, even if it includes things already forbidden. I would like it slightly better if the word "sibilant" were used. Perhaps for consistency the reason could be given for the last restriction instead of listing seemingly-random pairs.'' .imi'e .skaryzgik.
***''Agreed'' mi'e.aionys.

==== Section 9 ====

#A bit after example 9.5, the explanation of how to stress words is ambiguous. A possible incorrect interpretation:
<code>
set stressed_syllable = penultimate_syllable;

while (stressed_syllable contains "l|m|n|r|y"

&& stressed_syllable != first_syllable) {

stressed_syllable = syllable_before(stressed_syllable);
</code>
None of the examples demonstrate that only syllables containing "l|m|n|r" as syllables on their own are to be skipped, nor that skipped syllables are to be ignored ''before'' you start counting as opposed to skipped while you're counting. The following examples would make it clearer: {djanatyn} is pronounced {DJAnatyn} (not {djaNAtyn}), and {patrica} is pronounced {paTRIca} (not {PAtrica}).

==== Section 12 ====

*The tengwar table should use actual tengwar in addition to their names, since we now have Unicode (CSUR) and good fonts.
*The Cyrillic letters given map to 'abcdefgijklmnoprstuvxyz'? That doesn't seem totally obvious. mi'e.djeims.

**I agree [[User:Sisima70|Sisima70]] ([[User talk:Sisima70|talk]]) 17:42, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

=== Chapter 4 ===

==== Section 7 ====

*In the procedure for making a non-Lojban word into a valid Stage 3 fu'ivla, double consonants are to be eliminated before the sounds are to be converted to their closest Lojban equivalents, but it is possible that consecutive consonants have different sounds (like in 'eccentric'). So these actions should swap places. The same goes for section 8, in the procedure for Lojbanizing a name.

=== Chapter 5 ===

==== Section 14 ====

*The three letter language abbreviations were probably used to save space, but now that we have actual tables we can safely write the full names of the languages.

=== Chapter 10 ===

*It would be nice if there was a template for compound tenses around the end of the chapter, like the template for compound cnima'o in chapter 13 section 8.

=== Chapter 11 ===

==== Section 12 ====

*The phrase {le ka la frank ciska} is glossed as "The quality-of Frank's writing". {ka} glosses to the word "property", and the Lojban doesn't talk at all about quality (as in jezyprane), so I believe the word "quality" was accidentally put there, having bled into the interlinear gloss from the author's intended natural English translation. That said, I (Zort) believe the gloss should be "The property-that Frank writes".
*''That'' said, I (still Zort) have a humble suggestion for a demonstration of this section's grammatical feature, a cynical little observation, that has occured in my Lojban speech "in the wild", and perhaps therefore proves at least some usefulness of this grammatical feature: {le'e prenu cu djica lo mu'e jenai za'i gunka}.

=== Chapter 13 ===

==== Section 15 ====

*Couldn't the {se'u}s be elided since their sumti are before their selbri?

=== Chapter 16 ===

==== Section 9 ====

*It says "for no x" (noda) is the same as "it is false for some x" (naku su'oda). I (mi'e zort) interpret "it is false for some x" as "there is an x such that it is false" (su'oda naku), not "it is false that for some x it is true" (naku su'oda), so it should be changed to "it is false '''that''' for some x".

=== Chapter 18 ===

==== Section 19 ====

This section is very similar to Chapter 19 Section 7. I believe the information in these sections should be consolidated into a single section.

=== Chapter 19 ===

==== Section 7 ====

This section is very similar to Chapter 18 Section 19. I believe the information in these sections should be consolidated into a single section.

=== Chapter 21 ===

==== Section 2 ====

Rule 6 in the introductory remarks on EBNF syntax should clarify that "A & B" means "A | B | A B", but does not permit "B A". Further, explain that "A & B & C & D" permits one or more of A, B, C, and/or D, but ONLY in that order.

suggestions for CLL, second edition

2019-06-02T17:14:06Z

Sisima70: /* brivla/cmevla merger */

For errata relating to the current edition of the CLL, see [[CLL, aka Reference Grammar, Errata|CLL, aka Reference Grammar, Errata]]. For errata related to the 4th Baseline Grammar, see [[CLL PEG Errata|CLL PEG Errata]].

== General considerations ==

=== Terminology ===

#Lojban terms are used for most parts of speech, except for quantifiers and descriptors. Needlessly inconsistent?

**In particular (this list is not exhaustive),
***quantifier->something with {snicne}? (though personally I (zort) disagree with the veljvo of {snicne})

***quantified variable->something with {snicne}?
***descriptor->gadri

***description->gadri sumti (I haven't actually seen this used)
***attitudinal->cnima'o
****Only correct for emotion-words, not all attitudinals; this is due to its etymology. [[User:Sisima70|Sisima70]] ([[User talk:Sisima70|talk]]) 17:11, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

***terminator->fa'orma'o

***modal->sumti tcita

***vocative->jikma'o? rinsyma'o?
***evidential->veljivma'o?

**Using Lojban terms is probably confusing for beginners. They're appropriate for a reference manual but not for a (comprehensive) tutorial, and it is clear that CLL is trying to be both. Not trying to claim that it necessarily shouldn't be both, just clarifying the issue.

#A lot of this terminology is used without being defined. We should formally define the terminology that is import to understanding the grammar and syntax of Lojban, preferably in a sidebar outside of the main text.

# The general idea of terminators and particularly elision is never discussed as such in the book. Chapter 5.5 is the first mention of a elidable terminators, with the first use of the phrase elidable terminator occurring in Chapter 5.7. I think the concept of terminators, cmavo opening grammatical constructs, and elision should be dealt with in it's own section. At the very least, the construct should be defined.[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/browse_frm/thread/51e61df572e4ccf0]

=== Teaching Material and Examples ===

#There should be more illustration and diagrams. For instance, with termsets, show with lines and/or colour coding how two sentences are equivalent. See [http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/ロジバン the Japanese Wikipedia] for some other examples.

# Minimum 2 sentence explanation for every cmavo (excluding ones that are part of a pattern like {fo'i}, of course). Chapter 13 is particularly guilty of the length of the explanation of a cmavo seemingly being inversely proportional to the number of cmavo explained in the section; some just get two gloss words worth of explanation, and it's rather opaque.

=== Pedagogy ===

# Chapter 4 needs to go somewhere else, ideally near the end. It's crazy to give all that crap to newbies.

**''It is a specification, not a tutorial. It makes sense to start with orthography, follow with morphology, and then the continue with the rest of the language.'' mi'e.djeims.

# Maybe the fact that denpabu are optional in writing should be reinforced, since people seem to forget that. Right now it's only mentioned once, early in the book, in a little paragraph in chapter 3. It would not be out of place in chapters 4 and 19.

== Topic Suggestions ==

Each of these topics is important to the CLL, but not strictly contained to a single chapter or Section. Ideally, each of these topics would be reviewed for consistency throughout the text.

=== brivla/cmevla merger ===
* Even though the CLL probably shouldn't encode the "brivla-cmevla merge" proposal yet (if ever), I think it should have {cu} in {la .djan. cu klama}. This is because BCM or not, this elision of {cu} is confusing to beginners. Once they learn that brivla can be names too, they are liable to go e.g. {la zipcpi klama}; makes {la} look like it has "two grammars".
** "la" HAS two grammars [[User:Sisima70|Sisima70]] ([[User talk:Sisima70|talk]]) 17:14, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

=== Lujvo ===

==== Chapter 4 ====

===== Section 5 =====

It seems like the writers of the CLL originally did really just think of lujvo as being shortened forms of tanru who have been given an explicit meaning instead of the vague meaning that tanru have.

=== Cultural Neutrality ===

Chapter 3, Section 12 is titled "Oddball Orthographies." "Oddball" is value judgment, rather than a factual statement. In the spirit of cultural neutrality we should find statements with implied value judgments and translate them to factual statements. In this case, "Alternate Orthographies" is a much clearer statement about the contents of that section.

* An obvious objection to this is that a neutral tone of writing is relatively boring. "Oddball" is more fun than "Alternate". By the way, do you advocate changing the chapter title "Relative Clauses, Which Make sumti Even More Complicated"?

== Typographical ==

*It would be better if numbered were not only chapters and sections, but also sentences like in the Bible.
***''Exactly what would be the benefit of adding "verse" numbers? We can easily cite specific sentences without the need to do this. For example, citing from the online refgram: 9.3.7.2 (Chapter 9, section 3, paragraph 7, sentence 2): "Therefore, it is perfectly all right to scramble...." Or for examples: 9.3-3.3 (Chapter 9, section 3, example 3.3): "''3.3) klama fa mi fi la .atlantas.'' ...."'' mi'e.aionys.

*The brush-stroke placeholders for logical connectives should be written in "blackboard bold" instead, to make it look more form
**''I remember this section being confusing to me because of the brushstroke letters. Suddenly the book became much more formal (in the mathematical sense) and I didn't know what that signified. Writing them as of "-a -e -i -o" might be better, since the hyphen indicates they are not themselves words, without introducing a strange new typographical convention. The book already uses hyphens to show that rafsi are not words, so this would be consistent. Or since "a e i o" actually are words, perhaps they could be used directly.'' mi'e.paldanyli.

*The header or footer of each page should include the chapter number along with the title, to make fully referencing examples easier. (i.e., when you see example 1.7, you can look at that page and know that it is example 5.1.7, without having to scroll back to the table of contents to find the name of the chapter.)

== Chapter Suggestions ==

=== Chapter 3 ===

==== Section 6 ====

#Section 6, restriction no. 2 already forbids 8 of the 12 consonant pairs that are forbidden by restriction no. 3; perhaps it's better to just explicitly forbid the pairs "cs", "jz", "sc" and "zj" like in the last restriction.

**''I kind of like that the explanation for those pairs being forbidden is given, even if it includes things already forbidden. I would like it slightly better if the word "sibilant" were used. Perhaps for consistency the reason could be given for the last restriction instead of listing seemingly-random pairs.'' .imi'e .skaryzgik.
***''Agreed'' mi'e.aionys.

==== Section 9 ====

#A bit after example 9.5, the explanation of how to stress words is ambiguous. A possible incorrect interpretation:
<code>
set stressed_syllable = penultimate_syllable;

while (stressed_syllable contains "l|m|n|r|y"

&& stressed_syllable != first_syllable) {

stressed_syllable = syllable_before(stressed_syllable);
</code>
None of the examples demonstrate that only syllables containing "l|m|n|r" as syllables on their own are to be skipped, nor that skipped syllables are to be ignored ''before'' you start counting as opposed to skipped while you're counting. The following examples would make it clearer: {djanatyn} is pronounced {DJAnatyn} (not {djaNAtyn}), and {patrica} is pronounced {paTRIca} (not {PAtrica}).

==== Section 12 ====

*The tengwar table should use actual tengwar in addition to their names, since we now have Unicode (CSUR) and good fonts.
*The Cyrillic letters given map to 'abcdefgijklmnoprstuvxyz'? That doesn't seem totally obvious. mi'e.djeims.

=== Chapter 4 ===

==== Section 7 ====

*In the procedure for making a non-Lojban word into a valid Stage 3 fu'ivla, double consonants are to be eliminated before the sounds are to be converted to their closest Lojban equivalents, but it is possible that consecutive consonants have different sounds (like in 'eccentric'). So these actions should swap places. The same goes for section 8, in the procedure for Lojbanizing a name.

=== Chapter 5 ===

==== Section 14 ====

*The three letter language abbreviations were probably used to save space, but now that we have actual tables we can safely write the full names of the languages.

=== Chapter 10 ===

*It would be nice if there was a template for compound tenses around the end of the chapter, like the template for compound cnima'o in chapter 13 section 8.

=== Chapter 11 ===

==== Section 12 ====

*The phrase {le ka la frank ciska} is glossed as "The quality-of Frank's writing". {ka} glosses to the word "property", and the Lojban doesn't talk at all about quality (as in jezyprane), so I believe the word "quality" was accidentally put there, having bled into the interlinear gloss from the author's intended natural English translation. That said, I (Zort) believe the gloss should be "The property-that Frank writes".
*''That'' said, I (still Zort) have a humble suggestion for a demonstration of this section's grammatical feature, a cynical little observation, that has occured in my Lojban speech "in the wild", and perhaps therefore proves at least some usefulness of this grammatical feature: {le'e prenu cu djica lo mu'e jenai za'i gunka}.

=== Chapter 13 ===

==== Section 15 ====

*Couldn't the {se'u}s be elided since their sumti are before their selbri?

=== Chapter 16 ===

==== Section 9 ====

*It says "for no x" (noda) is the same as "it is false for some x" (naku su'oda). I (mi'e zort) interpret "it is false for some x" as "there is an x such that it is false" (su'oda naku), not "it is false that for some x it is true" (naku su'oda), so it should be changed to "it is false '''that''' for some x".

=== Chapter 18 ===

==== Section 19 ====

This section is very similar to Chapter 19 Section 7. I believe the information in these sections should be consolidated into a single section.

=== Chapter 19 ===

==== Section 7 ====

This section is very similar to Chapter 18 Section 19. I believe the information in these sections should be consolidated into a single section.

=== Chapter 21 ===

==== Section 2 ====

Rule 6 in the introductory remarks on EBNF syntax should clarify that "A & B" means "A | B | A B", but does not permit "B A". Further, explain that "A & B & C & D" permits one or more of A, B, C, and/or D, but ONLY in that order.

suggestions for CLL, second edition

2019-06-02T17:11:55Z

Sisima70: /* Terminology */

For errata relating to the current edition of the CLL, see [[CLL, aka Reference Grammar, Errata|CLL, aka Reference Grammar, Errata]]. For errata related to the 4th Baseline Grammar, see [[CLL PEG Errata|CLL PEG Errata]].

== General considerations ==

=== Terminology ===

#Lojban terms are used for most parts of speech, except for quantifiers and descriptors. Needlessly inconsistent?

**In particular (this list is not exhaustive),
***quantifier->something with {snicne}? (though personally I (zort) disagree with the veljvo of {snicne})

***quantified variable->something with {snicne}?
***descriptor->gadri

***description->gadri sumti (I haven't actually seen this used)
***attitudinal->cnima'o
****Only correct for emotion-words, not all attitudinals; this is due to its etymology. [[User:Sisima70|Sisima70]] ([[User talk:Sisima70|talk]]) 17:11, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

***terminator->fa'orma'o

***modal->sumti tcita

***vocative->jikma'o? rinsyma'o?
***evidential->veljivma'o?

**Using Lojban terms is probably confusing for beginners. They're appropriate for a reference manual but not for a (comprehensive) tutorial, and it is clear that CLL is trying to be both. Not trying to claim that it necessarily shouldn't be both, just clarifying the issue.

#A lot of this terminology is used without being defined. We should formally define the terminology that is import to understanding the grammar and syntax of Lojban, preferably in a sidebar outside of the main text.

# The general idea of terminators and particularly elision is never discussed as such in the book. Chapter 5.5 is the first mention of a elidable terminators, with the first use of the phrase elidable terminator occurring in Chapter 5.7. I think the concept of terminators, cmavo opening grammatical constructs, and elision should be dealt with in it's own section. At the very least, the construct should be defined.[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/browse_frm/thread/51e61df572e4ccf0]

=== Teaching Material and Examples ===

#There should be more illustration and diagrams. For instance, with termsets, show with lines and/or colour coding how two sentences are equivalent. See [http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/ロジバン the Japanese Wikipedia] for some other examples.

# Minimum 2 sentence explanation for every cmavo (excluding ones that are part of a pattern like {fo'i}, of course). Chapter 13 is particularly guilty of the length of the explanation of a cmavo seemingly being inversely proportional to the number of cmavo explained in the section; some just get two gloss words worth of explanation, and it's rather opaque.

=== Pedagogy ===

# Chapter 4 needs to go somewhere else, ideally near the end. It's crazy to give all that crap to newbies.

**''It is a specification, not a tutorial. It makes sense to start with orthography, follow with morphology, and then the continue with the rest of the language.'' mi'e.djeims.

# Maybe the fact that denpabu are optional in writing should be reinforced, since people seem to forget that. Right now it's only mentioned once, early in the book, in a little paragraph in chapter 3. It would not be out of place in chapters 4 and 19.

== Topic Suggestions ==

Each of these topics is important to the CLL, but not strictly contained to a single chapter or Section. Ideally, each of these topics would be reviewed for consistency throughout the text.

=== brivla/cmevla merger ===
* Even though the CLL probably shouldn't encode the "brivla-cmevla merge" proposal yet (if ever), I think it should have {cu} in {la .djan. cu klama}. This is because BCM or not, this elision of {cu} is confusing to beginners. Once they learn that brivla can be names too, they are liable to go e.g. {la zipcpi klama}; makes {la} look like it has "two grammars".

=== Lujvo ===

==== Chapter 4 ====

===== Section 5 =====

It seems like the writers of the CLL originally did really just think of lujvo as being shortened forms of tanru who have been given an explicit meaning instead of the vague meaning that tanru have.

=== Cultural Neutrality ===

Chapter 3, Section 12 is titled "Oddball Orthographies." "Oddball" is value judgment, rather than a factual statement. In the spirit of cultural neutrality we should find statements with implied value judgments and translate them to factual statements. In this case, "Alternate Orthographies" is a much clearer statement about the contents of that section.

* An obvious objection to this is that a neutral tone of writing is relatively boring. "Oddball" is more fun than "Alternate". By the way, do you advocate changing the chapter title "Relative Clauses, Which Make sumti Even More Complicated"?

== Typographical ==

*It would be better if numbered were not only chapters and sections, but also sentences like in the Bible.
***''Exactly what would be the benefit of adding "verse" numbers? We can easily cite specific sentences without the need to do this. For example, citing from the online refgram: 9.3.7.2 (Chapter 9, section 3, paragraph 7, sentence 2): "Therefore, it is perfectly all right to scramble...." Or for examples: 9.3-3.3 (Chapter 9, section 3, example 3.3): "''3.3) klama fa mi fi la .atlantas.'' ...."'' mi'e.aionys.

*The brush-stroke placeholders for logical connectives should be written in "blackboard bold" instead, to make it look more form
**''I remember this section being confusing to me because of the brushstroke letters. Suddenly the book became much more formal (in the mathematical sense) and I didn't know what that signified. Writing them as of "-a -e -i -o" might be better, since the hyphen indicates they are not themselves words, without introducing a strange new typographical convention. The book already uses hyphens to show that rafsi are not words, so this would be consistent. Or since "a e i o" actually are words, perhaps they could be used directly.'' mi'e.paldanyli.

*The header or footer of each page should include the chapter number along with the title, to make fully referencing examples easier. (i.e., when you see example 1.7, you can look at that page and know that it is example 5.1.7, without having to scroll back to the table of contents to find the name of the chapter.)

== Chapter Suggestions ==

=== Chapter 3 ===

==== Section 6 ====

#Section 6, restriction no. 2 already forbids 8 of the 12 consonant pairs that are forbidden by restriction no. 3; perhaps it's better to just explicitly forbid the pairs "cs", "jz", "sc" and "zj" like in the last restriction.

**''I kind of like that the explanation for those pairs being forbidden is given, even if it includes things already forbidden. I would like it slightly better if the word "sibilant" were used. Perhaps for consistency the reason could be given for the last restriction instead of listing seemingly-random pairs.'' .imi'e .skaryzgik.
***''Agreed'' mi'e.aionys.

==== Section 9 ====

#A bit after example 9.5, the explanation of how to stress words is ambiguous. A possible incorrect interpretation:
<code>
set stressed_syllable = penultimate_syllable;

while (stressed_syllable contains "l|m|n|r|y"

&& stressed_syllable != first_syllable) {

stressed_syllable = syllable_before(stressed_syllable);
</code>
None of the examples demonstrate that only syllables containing "l|m|n|r" as syllables on their own are to be skipped, nor that skipped syllables are to be ignored ''before'' you start counting as opposed to skipped while you're counting. The following examples would make it clearer: {djanatyn} is pronounced {DJAnatyn} (not {djaNAtyn}), and {patrica} is pronounced {paTRIca} (not {PAtrica}).

==== Section 12 ====

*The tengwar table should use actual tengwar in addition to their names, since we now have Unicode (CSUR) and good fonts.
*The Cyrillic letters given map to 'abcdefgijklmnoprstuvxyz'? That doesn't seem totally obvious. mi'e.djeims.

=== Chapter 4 ===

==== Section 7 ====

*In the procedure for making a non-Lojban word into a valid Stage 3 fu'ivla, double consonants are to be eliminated before the sounds are to be converted to their closest Lojban equivalents, but it is possible that consecutive consonants have different sounds (like in 'eccentric'). So these actions should swap places. The same goes for section 8, in the procedure for Lojbanizing a name.

=== Chapter 5 ===

==== Section 14 ====

*The three letter language abbreviations were probably used to save space, but now that we have actual tables we can safely write the full names of the languages.

=== Chapter 10 ===

*It would be nice if there was a template for compound tenses around the end of the chapter, like the template for compound cnima'o in chapter 13 section 8.

=== Chapter 11 ===

==== Section 12 ====

*The phrase {le ka la frank ciska} is glossed as "The quality-of Frank's writing". {ka} glosses to the word "property", and the Lojban doesn't talk at all about quality (as in jezyprane), so I believe the word "quality" was accidentally put there, having bled into the interlinear gloss from the author's intended natural English translation. That said, I (Zort) believe the gloss should be "The property-that Frank writes".
*''That'' said, I (still Zort) have a humble suggestion for a demonstration of this section's grammatical feature, a cynical little observation, that has occured in my Lojban speech "in the wild", and perhaps therefore proves at least some usefulness of this grammatical feature: {le'e prenu cu djica lo mu'e jenai za'i gunka}.

=== Chapter 13 ===

==== Section 15 ====

*Couldn't the {se'u}s be elided since their sumti are before their selbri?

=== Chapter 16 ===

==== Section 9 ====

*It says "for no x" (noda) is the same as "it is false for some x" (naku su'oda). I (mi'e zort) interpret "it is false for some x" as "there is an x such that it is false" (su'oda naku), not "it is false that for some x it is true" (naku su'oda), so it should be changed to "it is false '''that''' for some x".

=== Chapter 18 ===

==== Section 19 ====

This section is very similar to Chapter 19 Section 7. I believe the information in these sections should be consolidated into a single section.

=== Chapter 19 ===

==== Section 7 ====

This section is very similar to Chapter 18 Section 19. I believe the information in these sections should be consolidated into a single section.

=== Chapter 21 ===

==== Section 2 ====

Rule 6 in the introductory remarks on EBNF syntax should clarify that "A & B" means "A | B | A B", but does not permit "B A". Further, explain that "A & B & C & D" permits one or more of A, B, C, and/or D, but ONLY in that order.